| Introduction It started with a curious notion, and it built up from going through one adventure module noting certain things mentally. Then it became actually taking notes on a piece of paper, and comparing between them. Following this opening post, will be lists of the treasure (gp value, xp value, and magic items) in the iconic adventure series of AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3. NOTE: These posts will contain spoilers for: AD&D1's Temple of Elemental Evil, Against the Giants, Descent to the Depths of the Earth, Vault of the Drow, and Queen of the Demonweb Pit. D&D3's Sunless Citadel, Forge of Fury, Speaker In Dreams, Standing Stones, Heart of Nightfang Spire, Lord of the Iron Fortress, and Bastion of Broken Souls. B/ED&D's The Keep on the Borderlands, The Isle of Dread, and others. I will probably be adding data from other classic adventures as well. ------------------------------- The layout of the data: Party begins at: This is the level (and xp) that the party of adventurers begin the adventure module. For the adventure path modules, the levels (and xp) will carry over from one adventure in the series to the next. Total gp value: This is the total value of items that had a value listed for them in the adventure module (usually coins*, gems, and jewelry). It does not include the value of mundane armor, weapons, and equipment taken from fallen foes. Total xp value: This is the total value of enemies and/or challenges that had a xp value or CR. For AD&D1 and B/ED&D, it includes the standard 1gp = 1xp. But this will not include xp for using or selling the magic items (an AD&D1 rule only). It also does not include the 5-10% bonus xp for having a prime requisite ability score above 12-15. Although this means the AD&D1 and B/ED&D xp values will not be as high as they could be in actual play, these extra xp are too variable to include in this data list. Total magic treasure: This includes magic items listed as treasure in the module. It does not include non-treasure magic items, like what the captain of the guard in the town might have, or things that might have a magical effect but what can't be taken by the PCs, like a magic altar. Party finishes at: This is the level (and xp) that the
party of adventurers come out of the adventure module. The data is a listing/calculation of every set/numbered encounter in the adventure. I do not include wandering monsters (too variable). ------------------------------- AD&D1 and B/ED&D rules and adventures expected a larger party of adventurers than D&D3 assumes. (Some AD&D1 and B/ED&D adventures expected/suggested as many as 10 PCs.) For these adventures I'm using 6 PCs in my calculations because: 1- In my experience, with several groups through the years, I've never seen more than 6 PCs regularly in a game 2- WotC did research in the late 90s to find out what the normal average was for most game groups, and their data showed 4 PCs were the average (3-5).** For AD&D1 parties***: a fighter, paladin, cleric, magic-user, illusionist, and thief. For B/ED&D parties***: a fighter, cleric, magic-user, thief, elf, and dwarf.**** To compare the leveling rates between the older editions and the current edition, I'll use these D&D3 PCs: D&D3 to AD&D1 comparison party: a fighter, paladin, cleric, wizard, illusionist, and rogue. D&D3 to B/ED&D comparison party: a fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue, fighter/wizard, and fighter D&D3 rules and adventures expect only 4 PCs. So for D&D3 adventure modules, I'll use: a fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue. * AD&D1 coinage was 1 gp = 20 sp = 200 cp = 1/5 pp. B/ED&D coinage was 1 gp = 10 sp = 100 cp = 1/5 pp. D&D3 coinage is 1 gp = 10 sp = 100 cp = 1/10 pp. **It seems that Gygax and TSR based their "large party" assumption on their personal experiences (like EGG sometimes having upwards of 20 Players at his table at one time) and tournament gatherings (having 6-9 Players in a game) rather than on market sample information of actual home games (which reports say they had none). *** The various classes in AD&D1 and B/ED&D used different xp charts, so I chose 6 different classes to show how they level up at the different rates. **** In B/ED&D, the elf, dwarf, and halfling were classes as well as races. Elves were essentially fighter/magic-users; dwarves and halflings were essentially just fighters. Since halflings had a level cap at 8th, I chose to drop them from the list of characters here. (Elves capped at 10th, and dwarves capped at 12th.) ------------------------------- I hope you find this data as interesting as I have found it. I'll start with the beginning adventures of the original iconic adventure path series. Bullgrit |
Terms OD&D: Original D&D (1974) AD&D1: Advanced D&D first edition (1977) B/ED&D: Basic and Expert D&D; coexistent with AD&D1 (1977 & 1981) AD&D2: Advanced D&D second edition (1989) D&D3: D&D third edition and third edition revised (2000) E. Gary Gygax (EGG): original creator, designer, & author of AD&D1 TSR: original publisher/company for D&D WotC: current publisher/company for D&D xp: experience points gp: gold pieces  |
| The Village of Hommlet - The
Moathouse The iconic first adventure for AD&D1. The Village of Hommlet - The Moathouse by E. Gary Gygax AD&D1 party begins at: (0 xp each) D&D3 party begins at: (0 xp each) Total gp value: 30,938 gp Total xp value: D&D3: 25,548 xp Total magic treasure: AD&D1 party finishes at: (6,358 xp each) D&D3 party finishes at: (4,258 xp each) The AD&D1 party averages level 3.33, and the D&D3 party averages level 3 after this first adventure. Bullgrit |
| The Temple of Elemental Evil - The
Last Tower and Upper Rubble Continuing the AD&D1 adventure path. The Temple of Elemental Evil - The Last Tower and
Upper Rubble by E. Gary Gygax & Frank Mentzer AD&D1 party begins at: (6,358 xp each) Total gp value: 7,079 gp Total xp value: D&D3: 9,450 xp Total magic treasure: AD&D1 party continues at: (8,079 xp each) The AD&D1 party averages level 3.5, and the D&D3 party
averages level 3. They are now at the doorstep to the Temple of
Elemental Evil. Bullgrit |
| The
Temple of Elemental Evil - Dungeon Levels 1 & 2 The Temple of Elemental Evil - Dungeon Levels 1 and 2 by E. Gary Gygax & Frank Mentzer Dungeon Level 1 Total gp value: 29,686 gp Total xp value: AD&D1: 42,855 xp (not not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15) D&D3: 53,550 xp Total magic treasure: AD&D1 party continues at: (15,221 xp each) D&D3 party continues at: (14,758 xp each) Dungeon Level 2 Total gp value: 105,084 gp Total xp value: D&D3: 69,684 xp (does not include xp for 1 drelb, and 1 sumonster -- I do not have CRs for these creatures) Total magic treasure: AD&D1 party finishes at: (39,538 xp each) The AD&D1 party averages level 5.7, and the D&D party
averages level 7. Note: If we assume that each of the AD&D1 characters had a 16 in their prime requisite ability score (Strength for fighters, Intelligence for magic-users, etc.), the AD&D1 party would be: AD&D1 party finishes at: (43,492 xp each) Averaging level 6 (the magic-user and thief gained a level). If I were to add in the xp for the magic items, the level would go even higher. Bullgrit |
| The
Temple of Elemental Evil - Dungeon Levels 3 & 4 The Temple of Elemental Evil - Dungeon Levels 3 and 4 by E. Gary Gygax & Frank Mentzer Dungeon Level 3 AD&D1 party begins at: (39,538 xp each) D&D3 party begins at: (26,372 xp each) Total gp value: 183,279 gp (plus 9 random gems and 2 random jewelry) Total xp value: D&D3: 47,203 xp (does not include xp for 2 leucrotta -- I do not have a CR for these creatures) Total magic treasure: AD&D1 party continues at: (77,829 xp each) D&D3 party continues at: (34,239 xp each) Dungeon Level 4 Total gp value: 450,751 gp Total xp value: D&D3: 42,066 xp Total magic treasure: AD&D1 party finishes at: (161,968 xp each) Bullgrit |
| Commentary The above finishes the main objective of the Temple of Elemental Evil adventure. There's more to the adventure: explore the elemental nodes, then destroy the Golden Orb of Death, and/or kill the demoness Zuggtmoy. As the text of the adventure states: The fourth level of the dungeon is the true climax of the
whole campaign. . . . The above data does not include the separated prison section of the dungeons. The ways of getting to that area are very limited, and the party could wipe out the entire temple forces and never know it is there. The high priests don't even know Zuggtmoy is there. The elemental nodes are huge, and encounters are strictly on a random wandering monster basis. The text even states that exploring the nodes can be a full campaign in itself. The party could consider the sacking of the 4th level of the dungeon the end of the adventure, and they would not be wrong. Exploring the nodes, assembling the Golden Orb of Death, destroying the orb, and killing the demoness are superfluous at this point, and the text says as much. So, for this data, I am calling the ToEE complete. The
Temple of Elemental Evil adventure states that it will/can
take adventurers from 1st to 8th level, and this it does. Next, the AD&D1 and D&D3 parties will be moving on to the Giants series. Bullgrit |
| Commentary By the
adventure modules, as written, magic items were not rarer in AD&D1
than they
are in D&D3. In
fact, by the same levels, a party will probably have quite a bit more
magic in AD&D1 than in D&D3. But D&D3 allows the PCs to
tailor and customize their magic items to better suit their needs. An
AD&D1 fighter may have a +1 broadsword, a +1 spear, a +1 hand axe,
and a +2 dagger at 5th level, but the D&D3 fighter might have his
preferred +2 greatsword at 5th level. (A quantity vs. quality issue?) [You may note that weapons are armor are stated as "+1 longsword" in stead of the standard D&D3 style of "longsword +1." I'm listing the items in the AD&D1 standard style because these are AD&D1 adventure modules.] And especially note things like potions and scrolls. The poor AD&D1 illusionist in this adventure doesn't find a scroll until about 6th level---AD&D1 illusionists were a separate character class, with their own spell list---and it has only one spell. A D&D3 spell caster can have a handful of chosen spell scrolls by 3rd level, either by purchasing them or scribing them personally. But AD&D1 spell casters just got what they found. Also, by the adventure modules, as written, the
AD&D1 characters did not level up slower than the D&D3
characters do. At least not at these low to mid levels. I suspect that
what many people remember as very
slow leveling in AD&D1 is a result of DMs not including as much
treasure in their home made adventures as the official adventures
include and assume. For instance, an official adventure
might have 1,000 xp worth of monsters and then 9,000 gp as treasure
(for
a total 10,000 xp). But an individual DM's adventure may have 1,000 xp
worth of monsters and only 2,000 gp as treasure (for a total 3,000 xp).
Thus leveling was slowed greatly. But this is an effect of the DM, not
the rules. Or the DM might not have given xp for gp. From discussions on
Internet
message boards, this seems the most common factor. A lot of DMs ignored
or house ruled out the rule of giving xp for gp treasure value. Most xp
from these adventures came from gp value, so not using this rule would
make a big difference. More xp than listed in the above data could come from the
magic items found. For instance, a +1 sword (for example) is worth 400
xp to the character using it, or
it can be sold for 2,000 gp which would be translated to 2,000 xp for
the whole party. And then there was the 10% bonus to xp for having a primary
ability score over 15. Taken in all, there were plenty of xp to be awarded in
AD&D1 adventure modules. But AD&D1 also had the training to
level rules. By the book, when a character gained enough xp to level
up, he or she must stop for one to four weeks to train. Only after the
weeks of training could the character level up. From Internet forum
discussions, a lot of DMs ignored this rule too. The AD&D1 train to level rule causes logistical problems
for a campaign because the xp requirements for leveling varied greatly
between the classes. For instance, a thief only needed 1,251 xp to make
2nd level, the fighter needed 2,001 xp, and the magic-user needed 2,501
xp. By the train to level rule, a character stops gaining xp until
he trains to level up. So when the thief had gained enough xp to level,
the party would be left with a decision: drop out of the action for a
couple weeks and let the thief train to level up, or continue and screw
the thief on further xp. Then when the fighter reached his 2,001st xp,
they had the decision all over again. It's no wonder that most DMs
ignored the train to level rule and just let PCs level as they earned
xp. So, there are so many possible variables in people's
experiences with level advancement in AD&D1. But even though these variables exist, it is interesting to
see how the baseline works out. Bullgrit |
| AD&D1
- Against the Giants - The Steading of the Hill Giant Chief Against the Giants - The Steading of the Hill Giant Chief by E. Gary Gygax AD&D1 party begins at: (161,968 xp each) D&D3 party begins at: (41,250 xp each) Total gp value: 252,675 gp D&D3: 84,835 xp Total magic treasure: AD&D1 party finishes at: (225,371 xp each) The AD&D1 party averages level 9.2, and the D&D3 party averages level 11. 1.8 levels difference. At this point, the AD&D1 cleric and illusionist join the thief at "name level". Bullgrit |
| Commentary Just for class comparison interest, the xp required to get from 9th level (name level for most classes) to 10th level in AD&D1: Fighter 250,000 A basic fighter requires FIVE TIMES as many xp to go from 9th
level to 10th level compared to the thief. In AD&D1, character
class balance was controlled with experience point requirements.
Experience being equal, a thief character was usually always the
highest level---as much as 3 levels higher than the fighter of
equivalent
experience points. The paladin was usually always the lowest level.
Bullgrit |
|
AD&D1 - Against the Giants - Glacial Rift of the
Frost Giant Jarl
Against the Giants - Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl by E. Gary Gygax AD&D1 party begins at: (225,371 xp each) D&D3 party begins at: (55,389 xp each) Total gp value: 626,058 gp Total xp value: D&D3: 160,332 xp Total magic treasure: AD&D1 party finishes at: (383,477 xp each) The AD&D1 party averages level 9.8, and the D&D3 party averages level 13. 3.2 levels difference. All the AD&D1 characters are now name level. Bullgrit |
|
AD&D1 - Against the Giants - Hall of the Fire Giant
King
Against the Giants - Hall of the Fire Giant King by E. Gary Gygax AD&D1 party begins at: (383,477 xp each) D&D3 party begins at: (82,111 xp each) Total gp value: 1,061,319 gp (yes, that's over 1
million) D&D3: 156,168 xp Total magic treasure: AD&D1 party finishes at: (653,268 xp each) The AD&D1 party averages level 10.5, and the D&D3
party averages level 15. 4.5 levels difference. Bullgrit |
|
Commentary
Regarding the “drow item” notation in the Fire Giant
adventure: I
identified these items because they are special cases. They will lose
power and corrode over time, outside of the underdark. The AD&D1 Fiend
Folio says, When these are exposed to
direct sunlight, irreversible decay starts and the items will become
totally useless in 2-12 days. If protected from sunlight, they will
retain their special properties for 31-50 days before becoming normal
items; and if exposed to the radiations of the Drow homeland for a
period of 1 week out of every 4 weeks, the items could remain potent
indefinitely.
Many of the drow-made items in the adventures are found outside the drow homeland. And so far in the adventures I've covered, the PCs are headed for the drow homeland. So, it is quite possible that these items will continue to function as magical for the extent of this entire series of adventures (from the time they are acquired). But anyway, it is rather redundant, as the PCs have plenty of magic items other than the drow-made stuff. Bullgrit |
| Commentary
Looking at the data for this iconic AD&D1 adventure series: Below AD&D1 “name level,” the PCs gain levels at about a [AD&D1] 1:1 [D&D3] ratio. After AD&D1 “name level,” the AD&D1 level advancement starts slowing down, while the D&D3 level advancement stays about the same rate, something like a [AD&D1] .5:1 [D&D3] ratio. Bullgrit |
| Commentary
At the end of the Giants adventures, the party has 653,268 xp
each; 3,919,608 total. Of that total xp, 1,172,750 xp was from
monsters, and 2,746,858 xp was
from gp (not counting magic item xp, either direct or from gp when
sold). That's 70% xp from gold, and only 30% from monsters. So you can see how not giving xp for gp would severely slow
down level advancement. It is ironic how one of the biggest complaints
about D&D3 is that the characters advance in level too
fast---faster than AD&D1 characters did. One: this is not how the
adventures were designed and written. Two: altering the xp awards for
D&D3 is probably one of the easiest things to house rule. Those
that like slower advancement obviously house ruled xp awards in
AD&D1. Why don't they just do the same in D&D3? Bullgrit |
|
AD&D1 - Descent to the Depths of the Earth - Descent
to the Depths of the Earth Descent to the Depths of the Earth - Descent to the
Depths of the Earth by E. Gary Gygax AD&D1 party begins at: (653,268 xp each) D&D3 party begins at: (108,139 xp each)
Total xp value: Total magic treasure:
D&D3 party finishes at: (118,139 xp each) After the descent down to the doorstep of the kuo toa's
shrine, the
AD&D1 party averages level 11.2, and the D&D3 party averages
level 15 (still). The descent adventure is ~90% low- to mid-level enemies.
Bugbears,
troglodytes, trolls, and most of the drow are just worth 0 xp for the
15th-level D&D3 party, but still add up enough (with their
treasure) to keep the 9th- to 12th-level AD&D1 group advancing a
little. The Descent to the Depths of the Earth adventure
module [D1-2, which includes Shrine of the Kuo Toa
(not yet included in this data)] says, on the cover, "An Adventure for
Characters Levels 9-14." This closely matches the levels this party
came out of the Giants series at, (levels 9-12). The Vault of the
Drow
adventure module says it is for levels 10-14, and that is probably what
this group will be when they reach that adventure. So it seems that
Gygax pretty well figured the level gains an AD&D1 party would be
making through these adventures. And that makes sense, since he ran
these for his personal campaign, and saw them run through tournaments. It should be noted that the descent adventure was designed to have a lot of random encounters along the way. But random encounters are just that - random. So I didn't/couldn't include them in this data. The above numbers are just from the set encounters. Bullgrit |
| AD&D1
- Descent to the Depths of the Earth - Shrine of the Kuo Toa
Descent to the Depths of the Earth - Shrine of the
Kuo Toa by E. Gary Gygax AD&D1 party begins at:
(738,514 xp each) Total gp value: 417,795 gp Total xp value: Total magic treasure: AD&D1 party finishes at:
(824,980 xp each) The party's next steps take them into the drow kingdom. Vault
of the Drow is for characters levels 10-14, and that's pretty much
right where they are. I've stopped tracking the xp for the D&D3 party for three
reasons. One: the monsters and challenges are mostly lower level stuff,
so the D&D3 party would be getting little to no xp for this
adventure anyway. Two: we've already seen the change in level
advancement from 1:1 ratio to .5:1 ratio. Although continuing to track
the xp and level advancement would be interesting. . . Three: figuring
up the xp for the D&D3 party is very tedious and time consuming.
I'm not getting paid for the time and effort. Bullgrit |
|
AD&D1 - Vault of the Drow Vault of the Drow by E. Gary Gygax AD&D1 party begins at: (824,980 xp each) Total gp value: 1,507,717 gp Total xp value: 2,414,001 xp (not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15) Total magic treasure: AD&D1
party finishes at: (1,227,315 xp each) Note: I did not include the treasure and xp from the drow city of Erelhe-Cinlu. This omission includes the main defensive wall and the noble houses (map areas 9-17). The city proper is just too random to calculate (not to mention it's 8,000-9,000 drow). The noble houses are given only a general overview with instructions to roll up treasure randomly, and the house leaders are given only basic stats without gear (DM is to assign weapons or armor "commensurate with rank"). The xp numbers also do not include xp for defeating Lolth, herself, although it is possible to encounter her in the temple. After this adventure, the PCs are entering the Demonweb Pits. Q1 is labeled for "Character Levels 10-14", and that's pretty much right where the PCs are (average: 13). It's pretty impressive that Gary Gygax so well designed/predicted the level advancement through these adventures. They finish one right at the appropriate level to start the next in the series. Bullgrit |
| AD&D1
- Queen of the Demonweb Pits Queen of the Demonweb Pits by David C. Sutherland III with
Gary Gygax Bullgrit |
| AD&D1
Treasure Types I never actually used the official treasure type tables in the AD&D1 Monster Manual. I always just placed treasure as I judged appropriate. Compared to the treasure given in official, published AD&D1 modules, I was stingy. Judging from the treasure given in official, published AD&D1 modules, I figured I was probably stingy compared to the treasure type tables too. But I never really knew for certain. I got curious recently about how the old AD&D1 treasure type tables worked. So I did some calculating and random rolling. ------------------------------------------------- To start with, I looked at Treasure Type A: Calculating using a weighted average formula, total treasure value = 32,904.4 gp (not including magic item gp value) Then I actually rolled on the charts: Treasure Type A #1
(rolled results) Treasure Type A #2 (rolled results) * Gems were rolled up in groups of up to 5. Monsters that have treasure type A: lich (1), locathah
(20-200), bandits (20-200), giant squid (1), and troglodytes (10-100). Treasure Type A gives a 30% chance for "Any 3" magic items.
Rolling
within that 30% chance for the second record, I was a little
disappointed to
roll two potions on the full magic item chart. ------------------------------------------------- Then I considered a standard orc lair: From the AD&D1 Monster Manual: Then I actually rolled on all the charts: Orc Lair #1 (rolled results) Orc Lair #2 (rolled results) * Gems were rolled up in groups of up to 5. Notice the different results for the two orc tribes. I figure
they must be from opposite sides of the track. ------------------------------------------------- This experiment shows me that trying to figure averages for
AD&D1
treasure types is pretty useless. The variation between the calculated
averages and actual rolls, and between multiple actual rolls is just so
vast. I want to roll for Treasure Type H, next. All dragons but the lowly white have Treasure Type H. I'd love to roll 10 tests, to see a full spread of results, but rolling on all these charts is just so very complicated and time consuming. For instance, for that first Treasure Type A record, I rolled at least 46 dice (counting d% as 1 die). Forty-six dice! For one treasure hoard. For just the orc tribe populations, I rolled 30d10, twice. Bullgrit |
|
AD&D1 - The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth Here is the treasure (gold and magic) from another AD&D1 adventure. But this one is outside the original adventure path above. The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth by Gary Gygax Total gp value: 293,960gp Total magic treasure: * Moves and stops on command, and shrinks to 10% size on command. ** "The cursed broadsword is absolutely neutral in alignment,
and it
has the power to generate illusion (as a wand) even though it has no
discernible intelligence. Such illusions last for 1d4+4 melee rounds,
and operate periodically after an interval of from 3d6 turns." This is just one dungeon with two levels. But just look at the
treasure and magic items. Bullgrit |
| BD&D
- Keep on the Borderlands - The Caves of Chaos Keep on the Borderlands - The Caves of Chaos by Gary Gygax BD&D party (0 xp): D&D3 party (0 xp): The adventure says it is designed for 6 to 9 characters, and there are 7 total classes in BD&D, so I went with 7 PCs (1 of each class) for this adventure. [Although I've never played in or run KotB with more than 6 PCs, and the norm for my BD&D playing was 4 Players/PCs.] Total gold value: 29,852 gp Total magic items: Total defeated enemies: After clearing the caves (not counting any "refills"): BD&D party (5,151 xp): Notice the low gp treasure in this low-level BD&D adventure compared to the treasure in the low-level AD&D adventure, The Village of Hommlet and the first level or two of The Temple of Elemental Evil. Bullgrit |
